Comments on: New, refactored System Settings http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings On the web since 1999 Tue, 27 Jul 2010 23:23:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: fred http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11148 fred Sun, 03 May 2009 16:25:05 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11148 @Tom: "following your logic we shall have system settings kde2 and kde1 style as well" As far as I remember, KDE 1 and KDE 2's kcontrol were really like the one in KDE 3, just theme/icon differences. Proof: http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/images/kde-1.1.2-kcontrol.jpg http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/images/kde-2.2.1-kcontrol-desktop-small.jpg Btw, I like the old kcontrol is back now :-) @Tom: “following your logic we shall have system settings kde2 and kde1 style as well”

As far as I remember, KDE 1 and KDE 2′s kcontrol were really like the one in KDE 3, just theme/icon differences.

Proof:
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/images/kde-1.1.2-kcontrol.jpg
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net/images/kde-2.2.1-kcontrol-desktop-small.jpg

Btw, I like the old kcontrol is back now :-)

]]> By: Darryl http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11139 Darryl Sun, 03 May 2009 02:10:01 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11139 Hi, I think this is a great idea - good job! KDE is all about empowering users to make their own choices. Perhaps instead of having an "about" button though, you could have a link to "help" instead, with "about" a link within the help dialog. Also, I wish that distros like suse and mandriva would stop recreating the wheel and could place their config options into system settings (which they could improve with interface ideas from yast and/or mandriva control center) rather than rolling their own implementation that overlaps with system settings. Hi,

I think this is a great idea – good job! KDE is all about empowering users to make their own choices.

Perhaps instead of having an “about” button though, you could have a link to “help” instead, with “about” a link within the help dialog.

Also, I wish that distros like suse and mandriva would stop recreating the wheel and could place their config options into system settings (which they could improve with interface ideas from yast and/or mandriva control center) rather than rolling their own implementation that overlaps with system settings.

]]> By: Chani http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11138 Chani Sat, 02 May 2009 23:32:31 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11138 heh. all this drama over giving users a choice... I hope people don't complain like this over my soc project, which will bring plasma closer to feature-parity with 3.5's desktop :P I don't use systemsettings, anyways. I might, now that it has treeview again, but I find the systemsettings plasmoid works better for me than the 3.5 treeview did. (it's actually a config option in the traditional application launcher, so it doesn't show up in the add-widgets dialog. horrible for discoverability) heh. all this drama over giving users a choice… I hope people don’t complain like this over my soc project, which will bring plasma closer to feature-parity with 3.5′s desktop :P

I don’t use systemsettings, anyways. I might, now that it has treeview again, but I find the systemsettings plasmoid works better for me than the 3.5 treeview did. (it’s actually a config option in the traditional application launcher, so it doesn’t show up in the add-widgets dialog. horrible for discoverability)

]]> By: Mark http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11137 Mark Sat, 02 May 2009 15:46:12 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11137 Interesting. some people here seem to fall over the old setting that's now re-implemented in KDE 4. That in a way isn't bad at all for the sake of freedom to choose what you want to use. I won't go deeper into this since i don't really mind it being implemented yes or no. The thing i do mind is the fact that the blue sub module popup/balloon/whatever you call it just seems plain ugly to me. Surely there must be a better way to implement that and certainly not something in VISTA colors! at least make a border around the popups. Interesting. some people here seem to fall over the old setting that’s now re-implemented in KDE 4. That in a way isn’t bad at all for the sake of freedom to choose what you want to use. I won’t go deeper into this since i don’t really mind it being implemented yes or no.

The thing i do mind is the fact that the blue sub module popup/balloon/whatever you call it just seems plain ugly to me. Surely there must be a better way to implement that and certainly not something in VISTA colors! at least make a border around the popups.

]]> By: jajan http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11136 jajan Sat, 02 May 2009 15:35:15 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11136 @daniel: "The only reason I like the icon view is that it looks way nicer to me." Yes, this is the point. The icon view just looks nicer because the icons are bigger. But in my first post here I gave some contras against this view and some pro arguments for the kcontrol style. I think the kcontrol style is much better to handle the settings from user's point of view. So if KDE only wanted to offer one version of the system settings, the icon view should be dropped. Because many people would start crying about this (only because it does look nicer?) it is a good way to offer both versions and the user can choose what he wants. This is AFAIU the way KDE handles different opinions about desktop behaviours. You can choose what you like. And this is why I like KDE. (Sorry for my bad English btw. This makes arguing much more difficult. I hope you understand my points anyway.) @daniel: “The only reason I like the icon view is that it looks way nicer to me.” Yes, this is the point. The icon view just looks nicer because the icons are bigger. But in my first post here I gave some contras against this view and some pro arguments for the kcontrol style. I think the kcontrol style is much better to handle the settings from user’s point of view.

So if KDE only wanted to offer one version of the system settings, the icon view should be dropped. Because many people would start crying about this (only because it does look nicer?) it is a good way to offer both versions and the user can choose what he wants. This is AFAIU the way KDE handles different opinions about desktop behaviours. You can choose what you like. And this is why I like KDE.

(Sorry for my bad English btw. This makes arguing much more difficult. I hope you understand my points anyway.)

]]> By: Einar http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11135 Einar Sat, 02 May 2009 13:41:22 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11135 @daniel: There is no fork, nor duplication. This System Settings implementation replaced the old one, completely. @daniel: There is no fork, nor duplication. This System Settings implementation replaced the old one, completely.

]]> By: daniel http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11134 daniel Sat, 02 May 2009 13:35:52 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11134 @Sergio "I am a user and I want to choose" Why ? You mentioned that you never really bothered the icon view, so I had guessed that could have lived just fine without having an alternative. This all sounds like having a choice just for the sake of it, which is rarely a good argument when it comes to adding a feature "If you really want to support you point perhaps you should instead be trying to persuade people by explaining the virtues of the icon view" The only reason I like the icon view is that it looks way nicer to me. Other than that I really couldn't care less how the systemsettings are organized - at least as long as I can still find my way through it I am not pro icon view "I think the main problem has always been the arbitrariness of the categories, and that will be shared by both views" That's just the point I am trying to make: The new view doesn't solve the problems that the icon view might have. So instead of implementing another view that really has the same problems, we should have tried to pin down the issues in the old view A while ago when the cashew dicussion started get out of control aseigo wrote a blog entry that reflects on this idea (aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/03/fixing-versus-working-around-problems.html) and I am really gratefull that you (as the first poster on this blog) have now named a few of the issues: "clumsy (but tolerable) navigability" "highlighting modules is ok, but IMO, nowhere near displaying a list" "arbitrariness of the categories" Why have these issues not been addresses ? Instead we now have a "fork" of the system settings dialog that does mostly the same in a slightly different way. And while my views on usability might be controversial, I do hope we all agree that code duplication is a bad thing.. @Sergio
“I am a user and I want to choose”

Why ?

You mentioned that you never really bothered the icon view, so I had guessed that could have lived just fine without having an alternative. This all sounds like having a choice just for the sake of it, which is rarely a good argument when it comes to adding a feature

“If you really want to support you point perhaps you should instead be trying to persuade people by explaining the virtues of the icon view”

The only reason I like the icon view is that it looks way nicer to me. Other than that I really couldn’t care less how the systemsettings are organized – at least as long as I can still find my way through it

I am not pro icon view

“I think the main problem has always been the arbitrariness of the categories, and that will be shared by both views”

That’s just the point I am trying to make: The new view doesn’t solve the problems that the icon view might have. So instead of implementing another view that really has the same problems, we should have tried to pin down the issues in the old view

A while ago when the cashew dicussion started get out of control aseigo wrote a blog entry that reflects on this idea (aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/03/fixing-versus-working-around-problems.html) and I am really gratefull that you (as the first poster on this blog) have now named a few of the issues:

“clumsy (but tolerable) navigability”
“highlighting modules is ok, but IMO, nowhere near displaying a list”
“arbitrariness of the categories”

Why have these issues not been addresses ?

Instead we now have a “fork” of the system settings dialog that does mostly the same in a slightly different way. And while my views on usability might be controversial, I do hope we all agree that code duplication is a bad thing..

]]> By: Einar http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11133 Einar Sat, 02 May 2009 11:54:49 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11133 @saphir: ereslibre had a complete lack of time to work on such things, or anything KDE related. Also, the rest of systemsettings was essentially unmaintained, at least until bcooksley and msoeken stepped in. @saphir: ereslibre had a complete lack of time to work on such things, or anything KDE related. Also, the rest of systemsettings was essentially unmaintained, at least until bcooksley and msoeken stepped in.

]]> By: Thomas http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11132 Thomas Sat, 02 May 2009 10:23:23 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11132 thanks for the new choice. I also think, that an about button is max. used one time and makes no sense. I am the same opinion as FreeMinded about the separation of modules like "Desktop", "Windows-behaviour",.. you have to test more than one of the icons to find the setting what you are searching for. thanks for the new choice. I also think, that an about button is max. used one time and makes no sense.

I am the same opinion as FreeMinded about the separation of modules like “Desktop”, “Windows-behaviour”,.. you have to test more than one of the icons to find the setting what you are searching for.

]]> By: saphir http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings/comment-page-1#comment-11131 saphir Sat, 02 May 2009 09:06:32 +0000 http://www.dennogumi.org/2009/05/new-refactored-system-settings#comment-11131 Good work! Nice to see that KDE forum ideas get implemented :). Congratulation to all people involved. About something slightly different: if I remember correctly, there was a work going on in order to improve the usability of the icon view following a comment by Celest L. Paul regarding the title of the categories (the problem was related to the placement of the line with regard to the category caption in KCategorizedView, http://www.ereslibre.es/?p=173 for reference). It seemed to me that it was supposed to go into KDE 4.3. However, I do not see the changes on these screenshots. Do you know if it is still planned for 4.3? Good work! Nice to see that KDE forum ideas get implemented :). Congratulation to all people involved.

About something slightly different: if I remember correctly, there was a work going on in order to improve the usability of the icon view following a comment by Celest L. Paul regarding the title of the categories (the problem was related to the placement of the line with regard to the category caption in KCategorizedView, http://www.ereslibre.es/?p=173 for reference). It seemed to me that it was supposed to go into KDE 4.3. However, I do not see the changes on these screenshots. Do you know if it is still planned for 4.3?

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